fashion is fetish is fabulous is fun is fantastic!
한국 여자들 패션의 핵심을 정의하자면, 미국의 “섹시” 코드와 비교해서, 아마도 “내숭“/”얌전“떠는 아가씨 스타일이에요. 근데 한국 여자들 모두 암전한 처자로 보이려고 한다는 것도 아니고, 미국 여자들도 모두 섹시하다고 생각하는 거 아니에요. 하지만 분명히 한국 미의 가장 두드러진 이미지는 바로 억지스러운 아님 과도한 “천상 여자“ 스타일이에요. 이 참한 여자 모습은 1950년대에 미국 사람들이 즐겼던 스타일인데, 50년대를 비웃기라도 하듯, 1970년대부터는 미국 여자들도 이제 힐도 그만 신고 장보러 갈때 화장도 안하고 파우더 룸에 가는 거나 일주일에 한 번씩은 꼭 머리하는 것도 그만두고, 그리고 무엇보다도 중요하게 정장 원피스를 그만 입기 시작했죠.
When it comes to defining the core of Korean female fashion, the cultural codeword here is “demure”1, as opposed to the American one of “sexy.” Not that all Korean women are demure, nor do all American women define themselves as sexy, but the defining element of much of the Korean look is that of a conscious and overt “feminine” look that many Americans have left in the 1950’s starting around the 1970’s, when, for better or worse, American women stopped putting on heels and makeup to go to the grocery store, getting their hair done once a week, going to the “powder room”, and most importantly, wearing formal dresses.
한국은 하이힐과 화장이 기본적인 룰인 곳이에요. 엑세서리는 필수이고, 거리는 완전 런웨이 뺨 치구요. 또 한국은 페미니즘이라는 개념을 매우 언짢게 생각해요. 남녀 평등을 이론적으로 반기는 사상인데도 말이죠. 쉽게 말해서 남자랑 여자는 점점 더 평등해 보이기는 하지만, 같지는 않다 라는 말이죠. 한국에서 남자는 여전히 남자입니다. 남자들은 양복과 타이를 입고, 짧은 헤어스타일을 하고, 또 가족과 함께 있을 때에도 바지를 입고 있어요. 마찬가지로 여자도 여자에요. 남녀의 지위가 꾸준히 평준화 되어왔지만, 서양에 비해서 성 역할이 아직 많이 바뀌지도 않았어요. 한국의 스타일을 정의한다고 할 수 있는 엄격한 정장식은 사교 모임 같은 곳에서도 확인할 수 있어요. 한국 여자들은 대부분 고전적인 여성스타일로 한껏 꾸미고 입고 나옵니다.
Korea is a place where heels and makeup are the rule, accessories are necessities, and the street is a runway. “Feminism” is still a dirty word here, even if gender equality is a theoretically welcome concept. Put another way, men and women are increasingly seen as more equal, but not the same. Here, men are still men — they tend to wear suits and ties, have short hair, and still wear the pants in the family. Similarly, women are still women, in that gender status has equalized, even if gender roles haven’t much changed, as they have in the West. Put that together with the high level of formality that defines the Korean look in general when socializing on any level, you get women dressing up all the time, and doing so in a very classically feminine way.
이런 “천상 여자” 스타일은 한국에서는 단순한 유행이 아닙니다. 서양에서는 모든 스타일에서 (바지, 츄리닝 바지, 티셔츠 생각해봐요) 점점 더 캐주얼하고 중성화 되는 반면에 꾸준히 보여진 한국 여자들의 모습은 일상 생활에서 입는 옷에서도 세계에서 점점 더 특이하고 독특하게 발전되어 왔습니다.
This classically feminine look isn’t just a trend here — it’s a look that is so constant and persisting that, as the West becomes increasingly casual and androgynous on the everyday level (think pants, sweatpants, and t-shirts), this consistently Korean look becomes increasingly unusual and unique in the world, in terms of what everyday people actually wear every day.
그런데 미국인들, 독일인들, 영국인들, 아니면 일본인들, 브라질 사람들 여성스러운 드레스나 힐, 화장, 안하고 거울 앞에서 매일 아침 한 시간 동안 씨름 안한다는 거 아니에요. 하지만 제가 말하고 싶은 한국 여성들의 특별한 차이점은 그걸 매일매일 한다는 거죠 - 다른 나라 사람들은 적어도 그렇게 많이 하지는 않거든요. 그런 의미에서 한국 여자들은 뉴욕, 런던 이나 베를린에 사는 보통 여자들보다 좀 더 파리나 밀라노 여자들과 같은 대열에 끼울 수 있다고 하겠네요. 다른 어떤 곳에서도 견줄 수 없는 “여성스러움” 또는 “얌전녀” 레베루가 한국에 존재한다는 말씀입니다.
It’s not that no American or German or British or Japanese or Brazilian woman wears feminine dresses, or heels, or makeup, or spends an hour each morning in front of the mirror; yet, the difference is that women from such countries don’t do it every day, or at least, nearly as much. On that level, I’d put Korean women more in line with women from Paris or Milan than the average woman from New York, London, or Berlin. There is just a level of “feminine” or “demure” that just can’t be matched in many places.
이건 사진으로도 좀 표현하기 힘들군요. 여기서 중요하게 봐야 할 건, 일주일중 어느 하루라도 사람들이 많이 다니는 곳 중에 제가 가는 거의 모든 동네에서 정장스러운 원피스나 복장을 한 여자들이 캐주얼하게 입은 여자들 보다 훨씬 많다는 거에요 - 심지어 바지를 입은 여자들 보다도 더 많았습니다. 홍대, 신촌, 명동 같은 데에서 주말 오후를 보낼 때 보면 아실거에요. 정장 원피스나 치마를 입은 사람들이 훨씬 더 많다는걸..
This is hard to express, even through photos. What should be noted here is that on any given day of the week, in almost any place I go where people gather in large numbers, women in formal dresses or outfits far outnumber those in casual mode, or even wearing pants. On a weekend afternoon in Hongdae, Shinchon, or Myeongdong, one would be hard pressed to even find a woman wearing them.
그리고 바짓단이 점점 짧아지고 노출이 심해질 때에 상식적으로는 아마 “섹시”함을 기대할 거에요. 하지만 여전히 문화적 코드는 대부분 “내숭녀”입니다. 저 위의 사진에서도 보시다시피, 매우 짧은 길이와 전통적으로 가슴이나 어깨 같은 민감한 부위를 가려주는 볼레로 탑을 입었는데도 “섹시함”은 조신해보이려는 “내숭”의 미에서 옵니다 - 섹시함이 없다는 건 아니구요.
And even when hems go up and more skin gets exposed, and the desired effect may be “sexy,” the key cultural codeword is generally still “demure.” Even in the picture above, with the very high hemlines and without the bolero tops that traditionally cover the sensitive areas of the chest and shoulders, the “sexiness” comes from its tension with “demureness” — not its absence.
마지막으로 하고 싶은 말! 일반적으로 “얌전한 원피스” 입은 여자들을 카메라에 담기는 더 어려어요. 왜냐면 보통 핫팬츠나 초미니 스커트를 입은 일반 여자들보다 좀 더 나이가 있는 사람이라거나 더 보수적인 사람들이기 때문이지요. 그래서 우리는 포즈를 취해주기로 응한 첫번째 모델에게 많이 고마워요. 그리고 그 여자분도 좋은 사진도 얻고 기사 쓰는 데에도 기여한 좋은 경험 얻었으면 합니다. 좋은 기사 나오게 도와준 거 쌩유!
A final note: it’s generally much harder to get “demure dress” girls on camera, since their wearers seem to be a bit older and a tad more conservative than the average girl in hot pants or micro mini-skirt. So we’d like to thank our first model for agreeing to pose, and we hope she got some good pictures as well as a good experience out of participating in this article. What a good sport!
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35 Responses for "Real Korean Fashion: Demure Dresses!"
Thanks for the post! I really, really appreciated this, especially coming from a non-Korean background.
I’ve always found female Korean fashion to be different, and I couldn’t exactly place my finger on it… I just noticed a lot of heels, skirts, dresses… “pretty” things, but it didn’t exactly click until the word ‘demure’ came up!
Thanks for the article! Looking forward to more posts about this!
Honestly, with all due respect, this was the worst starting paragraph ever on FMS:
- “gender equality is a theoretically welcome concept”
Not even theoretically. Are you sure we are living in the same South Korean country?
- “Here, men are still men…”
Oh, come on! With all the purses, pinky clothes/accessories, feminine way of walking/dressing? Please…if you are talking about their rudeness, than is another thing…
- “…they tend to wear suits and ties, have short hair, and still wear the pants in the family”
Shiny silver suits(ok, still a suit), pink flashy ties(ok, still a tie), not necessarily short hair…ok, agree with the pants statement…
- “Similarly, women are still women, in that gender status has equalized…”
Nope, no equalization. Next…
Korean women don’t take a break, and dress-up 24/7. I find it boring. You go to the supermarket and see them all dressed up. Then, you go out at night, and they are using similar outfits. Damn! You are going out with me with the same clothes you go grocery shopping??? Am I not special enough??? In other countries, there is a thick line separating daily clothes from going out clothes. And it’s good: you feel special (both the person and his/her date), and there is always an expectation. Here, you know what you’ll get.
And interesting on the demure vs. sexiness: in some other countries, using such korean standard short skirts/dress/shorts is considered VERY MUCH whorish, no matter how covered you are up. This is a real cultural thing, since in Korea if you show a bit of your chest has the same effect. Interesting.
contrary to maximus.. i sorta fell in love with the all dress-up Korean culture..
in my country, people go around in tees and shorts and slippers to get grocery.. we also don’t have the habit of dressing demure.. woman here seems to love pants more than dresses..
what’s more depressing, they are still in love with skinnies, young and old..
I think all the pictures show more or demure dress…except for the two under the umbrella…which kind of remind me of Paris Hilton.
It get pretty bad elsewhere, with the juicy couture sweatsuits and running shoes, so I think it’s nice that they dress up to go out. It is all boring me to death, and looks 50 years old though.
The black layered (?) dress looks reasonably cute on that girl. The rest look a bit church-y…
those dresses are too tacky for me!
This is what I absolutely love about Korean fashion. It’s so girly and feminine and just…pretty. I’m pretty sure I’ve been influenced by it for a while now even though I’m not Korean, as I’ve been on the hunt for perfect dresses for a while now. I think Korean fashion is pretty awesome in general.
Sorry, but your article is an insult to me as a western girl. I may be “western” but I am MORE feminien than many Korean girls. I dress up all the time, and yes, I take care in my outfit just to run down to the corner mart for bottled water. I never dress sloppy, and I even had a fellow western coworker tell me that my dress looked like I was going to chruch for Easter Sunday. o, not all of us western girls dress like slobs. I see many more Koreans these days dressing in big, baggy sloppy shorts, tees and jeans. I am much more dressed up than many Korean girls when I go out. So, your article is just plain wrong and insulting. I come from the American south, where ladies are still taught to be ladies, unless she is a redneck feminist, whcih I am not. Thank you very much!
lovelyprincess — Sorry that you took offense, but none was intended. I never said people in the West dressed like “slobs” or “sloppily” but that there has been a huge change in dress since the 60’s, and that move has been towards more casual and gender neutral. Remember that Yves Saint-Laurent’s having even put American/Western women into pantsuits was considered revolutionary at the time, and women dressed in heels and dresses as a rule. Unless things have seriously changed since I left the US, I would say that this is no longer the case.
I’m not placing a value judgment on it, or saying one is better or worse. And of course, there are individual cases and differences. But the Korean and American ideas of fashion ARE different, and one of those overall points of difference is in terms of levels of formality. Koreans, like the Italians, simply tend to be formal in situations when most Americans are dressed down or casual. I’m not saying Americans are “slobs” or have no sense of fashion in the casual sense, but simply that this sense isn’t expressed in terms of formal wear.
No generalization will include every person, but they are useful when talking about huge issues such as fashion between different countries. And I’m simply saying that Korean women, even outside of Seoul, tend to be in more formal mode most of the time, and that the strictures placed on them by stricter gender norms, less gender equality, and a greater emphasis on appearance make appearing one’s “best” as a woman that much more important.
Actually, if I were to place value judgments, I’d say the American situation is preferable, as the decreased emphasis on physical appearance and the room to BE casual is the result of women’s social value being placed elsewhere, i.e. not on the body, what you wear, the brand name you display.
Had I been commenting on which situation is “better”, I would be on the American end of things, anyway. As it was, I was simply making a commentary on fashion and holding my tongue the social aspects. Had I been making one, I certainly wouldn’t be castigating Western women for being too anything, but rather, the other way around.
Please don’t take the article as an “insult,” since it certainly wasn’t placing value judgments in that direction. I respect your opinion and that you disagree about my reading of Korean fashion, but I think to take offense is reading a bit too much into what I was saying.
wow! thank you for your dedication to fashion, trends, and lifestyles of Seoul. It took me about a few days to find a site like this, and im happy i did! thank you for your dedication to this!!
my favorite blog was about the couple who had tattoos and af first we might judge them as a rebellious young couple, they are actually “normal.” like they were married, the lady was pregnant and they were gonna start a family!
so thank you!
Native Korean women dressed up 24/7?
I agree.
Fashionable choices and tastefully coordinated outfits?
Extremely questionable.
Although merely an opinion, I can say this with confidence after living in Korea for a few years and observing your average Korean woman on the go. Some of these Korean girls’ demure styles just look plain outdated and tacky.
I’m not a korean, but I admire korean fashion. I think they are one of the most fashionable people on earth. As a woman, I like wearing dress and high heels, and I find the korean way of dressing fitting for my taste. But I just have one comment: dress should be worn in proper places or events.
During one of my trip in Cebu, Philippines, I saw a bunch of korean ladies touring around the city. How can you walk around the city in such a hot summer day wearing formal dress and three-inch heels? It was somewhat out of place. Though, their outfits really looked nice…
This is, whether people like it or not, ‘Korean fashion’ as it were. It is what is exportable to other countries as Korean fashion. There’s a store in Kowloon called ‘Namu’ selling this (among others), as well as yesstyle.com online selling a mix of designer knockoffs and Korean styling to Americans. Yes, it is tacky, yes, it is outdated and frumpy, and yes, it has nothing to do with current fashion, but it’s about all that Korea has got, amidst a huge tide of foreign things. So until they step their domestic game up, this is it. Obviously the clothes are not Korean in origin, but the cuts and color palettes definitely are. The dresses here are probably the most ‘Korean’ of all, especially when you see them on a girl in her 20’s.
That said, i have been the flag-waver for moving Korean womenswear into a more modern, architectural realm for years, leaving the ’sexy’ and ‘cute’ back in where it belongs - the old days.
thank you for putting time into this blog. i check it everyday.
i adore korean fashion and this keeps me very up to date !
I’m still not getting how some people seem to think Koreans are dressed up 24/7. Really? I see plenty of sloppily dressed people all over Seoul. I think the baggy, casual look from the west is catching on here. That’s too bad. I love dresing up and when I go out, I am more dressed up than a lot of Korean girls because last year, on two different ocassions, a bartender asked me if I had just come from a party because I was dressed up. I’m telling you. Open your eyes. Korean girls don’t dress up all the time. Maybe they did like 30 years ago, I don’t know. I wasn’t around then.
Well, I guess the assertion wasn’t that they dress up “all the time” but that in most situations, they tend to be more formal than Americans and many Westerners. If you don’t agree with that, I respect your opinions. However, when I go to major neighborhoods such as Myeongdong, Apkujeong, Shinchon, Hongdae, or Jongno, just to name a few, say on the weekend, when people are not generally working, women tend to be dressed to the nines. College students I teach wear heels, makeup, and carry designer bags to class — not saying ALL of them do, but it’s not too long since I’ve taught in the University of California system, and my students didn’t wear 4-inch heels to class. In fact, the only kids who tended to overdress in such situations were the Korean ones. Or how 9 AM in front of Ewha front gate is jokingly called a “fashion runway” by many, because of the clop, clop, clop of high heels and girls trying to outdo each other in terms of dress.
These are the things I observe. And I am not saying that one is “better.” You seem to think I am saying it is, and are taking it as an “insult.” I am simply making an observation. And I still have friends from all over the States, who when they come over here, kind of stare in amazement and ask, “Do people dress like this all the time?” and women friends who wonder, “I don’t see how they can wear heels like that everywhere! It’d kill my feet!” Perhaps you don’t wonder about either of these things, but it still seems that a lot of people, including myself, think Korean women put a lot more time into appearance than most Western women do, which is not just limited to clothing, but also to the plastic surgery, diet, and other parts of the beauty industry — which is NOT necessarily what I consider to be a good thing.
In any case, I’m not the only one making this observation, but Korean women and the extreme lengths they will go to, to which they are pressured to go to, are legendary. The extreme dieting, the calf reduction surgery, cheekbone shaving, and myriad other things in addition to the nearly standard eye and nose jobs — these are particularly acute in Korea.
I’m not trying to make this a beauty Olympics, but rather explain that I don’t think it’s all “good” and that American women are somehow slobs who never think about their appearance. However, I think “fashion” is expressed in far more diverse ways in the States, and there are far more “looks” to be had there — but I do think that “looking good” or stylish is ofen expressed in more dressed-down and casual ways there, whereas here, no matter what one’s particular style is, it tends to be more formal.
Again, I speak in terms of tendencies, not absolutes. So, if you are a western woman here in Korea dressed to the nines, more power to you. And I agree with you, more Korean women are dressing down these days than was ever possible — not just 30 years ago, since even wearing ripped blue jeans would get you stares then, but 6 years ago. Things change quickly here.
But things don’t change all at once, and the cultural tendency, in my opinion, is that Koreans tend to be more formally dressed — in the sense of heels, dresses, and makeup — than in similar situations for Americans. But that wouldn’t be true for Italians, who I said in the article are much more formal than say, the Germans or the British. You may disagree with that, but when I walk through any Italian city, that’s what I see. And my memories of Italy reminded me first of Korea, not New York, in terms of formality and sheer amount of effort placed on appearance, whatever one thinks of the specific style differences between the two countries.
Perhaps some other people would like to chime in on this thread of conversation? Since I think bother lovelyprincess and my positions are clear? What do others think?
Suddenly I want to change my name to “Redneck Feminist” . . .
lovelyprincess, I don’t really understand your beef with FMS. I’m also a Western woman (from Germany) and not only did I detect any sort of discrimination against us in this article, I also completely agree with everything he said.
I don’t know what it’s like in whatever town you are from, but where I come from (Germany, as previously mentioned) you’d get some odd stares if you came to school wearing what half of all Korean college students wear on a daily basis. German women commonly wear mini skirts to go to the beach, the pool, a bar or a club. Rarely do they wear them to prance around the city in, and when they do, only in summer. You’d be hard pressed to see any German women wearing them to go to school, work or the grocery store with, obviously very different from Korean women. As far as these “demure” dresses are concerned, you pretty much have to go to a church to see them. It seems to me that it’s pretty much a fact anyone with eyes can see that, ON AVERAGE, Korean women spend a lot more time, effort and money to look feminine around the clock, which, as many times stated already, isn’t necessarily a good thing.
Having said that, I myself have started to dress more Korean since coming here. In Germany, I never wore mini skirts (as previously stated, that could earn you some funny looks - and sexual harrassment, which is thankfully something that in Korea, as sexist as it is, doesn’t happen in daylight), but since coming to Korea, I wear hot pants or skirts with heels almost every day. It’s a natural assimilation and a more or less conscious effort to fit in. I know that once I go back to Germany, I will go back to wearing jeans and tank tops within a week and won’t touch all those skirts I bought in Korea again until the next time I visit this country.
The politics of fashion are just different.
Honestly, I do see the “Korean women are feminine” line as an insult to Western women. I also have to disagree that sexy isn’t a way of dress here. In Korea, skirts and short are very short, so much so that you can see much more than you bargained for. It’s only when a Western girl shows off what she’s got in something that maybe emphasizes cleavage or her shape that Koreans start murmuring “sexy”. However, if walking around with a skirt that just barely brushes your butt cheek isn’t sexy dress, I don’t know what is.
Fashion is one aspect of femininity. However, these are the same women that will slug you (oh..”opa” —> whack), cut in front of you and not wash their well-manicured hands when leaving a public restroom. None of those behaviors are anywhere near feminine.
As for “demure” most of the dresses are, but the two at the bottom, as someone else pointed out, are very far from demure and are more like club wear.
Also, to be perfectly honest, I’ve got dresses in my wardrobe too and wore them quite a bit before moving to Korea. But it will be a cold day in hell before you catch me tipping around on Korea’s uneven sidewalks in heels, climbing up and down subway stairs and the like developing callouses on my feet.
I also agree that it’s a load of hogwash that Koreans are dressed up 24/7. I went to Ewha, which is the gold standard when it comes to young Korean women. Sometimes people dressed up and a lot of the times they didn’t. I think what’s going on here a lot of exaggeration and choosing to ignore the less dressed up girls in favor of the ones all dolled up. Maybe that’s a natural thing to notice, but not everyone does it.
Western women have learned that we can pick and choose when to dress up and there is nothing wrong with that. I think the next time you write about femininity and fashion, leave out the comparisons because that’s going to always get people riled up.
Well, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this issue.
I wasn’t making value judgments, just observing that the dress standards are more formal, and still tend to be more singular than in the West. And in terms of the ribbons, bows, frills, and high levels of things pink, I do think women in Korea do tend to dress more “feminine” than in the West, which I think allows for more room, and tends to be more gender neutral.
I’m not saying it’s better or worse, but an obvious difference.
And as for “demure,” I want to reiterate my point that even “sexy” in quotation marks still is in conversation with “demure”, and the difference is found in the tension between the two. Hence, even if skirts are short or there is a lot being revealed, you still get ribbons, bows, covered shoulders, and the sheer, the occasional taffeta-like cover over sensitive areas such as the shoulders and upper thighs that you’d never see on a miniskirt in the west, or a pair of hot pants here.
I’m trying to define what is obviously a particular mode of dress, somewhat peculiar to Korea — I don’t see many women in the States wear short-cut, coral pink minidresses like the one in the picture to anywhere but church or other completely formal events, while I can take a picture of 25 similarly-dressed women in under 5 minutes in any neighborhood in Seoul. In fact, on any given day in a Shinchon, Myeongdong, or Insadong, to name just a few typical places, I’ve walked down a single city block going snap, snap, snap of literally dress after dress just like the ones pictured above, and I doubt the same would be true even in Manhattan, or in Chicago, or LA. Or just the number of women on the street who wear heels — I’m not saying it’s “better” — it’s just a numbers game. More women wear such things here on the day-t0-day, in my observation, than back home (which is for me, the US).
It’s just a matter of numbers and a certain kind of dress that’s been a standard in Korea for years and seems to have just gotten more popular, colorful, and varied over the last few years. And outside of the many overseas trends that go in and out of Korea, the “demure dress” strikes me as a Korean constant, and a genre of dress that doesn’t seem to go away, no matter how “backwards” or “outdated” it might be described by some. It simply IS. And I’m trying to make sense of it.
I make no value judgments about the dress of either “side”, and have already mentioned that if I WERE to, I find say, the American case less constricting and reflective of less pressure on women to put inordinate amounts of effort into their appearance; as a photographer, however, I find the everyday dress here more formal, more “feminine” (in the sense of ribbons, bows, and such), more self-conscious of trends, and hence, there’s more to take pictures of if one is trying to document it.
And again, I’m talking about tendencies, not absolutes. I’m sure there are many women who dress down at Ewha, just as there are western women who could out-dress any Korean women around her. There are many Korean women who find dresses such as those worn by the woman in the picture horrifying (”촌스러워” or “country” would be how certain women who don’t like this style describe it), but I have begun to take note of it because a lot of women do dress this way, and as a documenter of what people actually wear (as opposed to what I THINK they should wear, which is the implicit assumption of many street fashion sites who define “fashionable” or “stylish” in very narrow terms), I think one cannot talk about Korean street fashion without 1) looking at this very common style, and 2) trying to make sense of it.
So, to that end, I apologize to anyone who feels offended by this analysis, but I stand by it, and don’t see where any negative value judgments were/are being aimed in ANY way at “western” women, especially when I mentioned that I thought that Italy and Korea were quite similar in terms of levels of formality to begin with.
I do think that say, the US, England, and Germany are quite a bit more casual, on average, than say, Italy, Japan, or Korea. Again, as part of my argument, I don’t see why that should offend anyone.
By the way, before this conversation goes too much further, I think it’s worth reminding people of what was actually said in the article, rather than continuing to paraphrase and summarize, criticize that, then go on, recycling the conversation into simpler and simpler “sides” that aren’t really there.
If one reads the article closely, you’ll see that I am not really comparing “Korean” to “Western” really, and that even there, we’re talking about levels of formality or levels of superficial “femininity” like ribbons and frills — not who is “better” or which is preferable. Here’s where the most comparisons are made, for example:
“It’s not that no American or German or British or Japanese or Brazilian woman wears feminine dresses, or heels, or makeup, or spends an hour each morning in front of the mirror; yet, the difference is that women from such countries don’t do it every day, or at least, nearly as much. On that level, I’d put Korean women more in line with women from Paris or Milan than the average woman from New York, London, or Berlin. There is just a level of “feminine” or “demure” that just can’t be matched in many places.”
Now, I could see people disagreeing with that, for whatever many reasons. But it is not categorical, nor are there any value judgments there. Nor is this “Korea vs. Western” thing, which is something that got set up more in the comments section than in the actual article.
Just wanted to make these points before the conversation goes any further.
I will say this, too. I used to have a Korean roommate here a few years ago, and she told me she was a tomboy. You wouldn’t catch her dead in a skirt or a dress. On the weekends, she was always in jeans, t-shirts and baseball caps. I also knew this one Korean girl who was dating my then boyfriend’s boss. Every time I saw her, she was wearing pants and a baseball cap. On the one ocassion I did see her in a skirt, she still had that darn baseball cap on. I also know of two other Korean girls who attended a wedding here in blue jeans, and they weren’t the more dressy dark denim jeans either. I only saw one of them wear a skirt once, but it was a long, very casual hippy looking skirt with an Adidas jacket on top. So, there are always exceptions to every rule. When I first came to Korea, my first school actually told me that the Korean staff complained about me dressing up too much for work, and that I looked like I was wearing formal, going out clothes.
But ribbons and frills isn’t “demure”. Demure means modest and a skirt that lines up with your butt cheek isn’t modest. At best what you’re talking about is frilly, ornate or elaborate.
Also, it’s fine to document what’s being worn but, again, where the problems occur is when you’re contrasting it to the Western approach which is much more functional. A woman in Manhattan or San Francisco simply isn’t going to bother with some frilly get up to run errands. A woman in those areas is going to look at a pair flats as adoringly as she’d look at a pair of pumps; and she’d choose the flat or pump according to what she was doing for that day or evening.
In contrast, Korea is a place where you have women trying to wear pumps and expensive accessories to a picnic or to the beach. So, yeah, you’re not going to get the same numbers of women dressed like this because women in those places don’t see a need to dress that way. Maybe our mothers and grandmothers did, but we don’t.
And, I’m glad you acknowledge that a lot of Korean women agree that the look you’re discussing is, in most cases, frumpy. I was much more impressed when I was in Russia because a lot of Russian women wear lovely dresses and skirts and aren’t afraid to use color.
I just think making broad comparative statements about femininity is going to set people on edge because femininity isn’t just about fashion choices.
BTW, the last time I was in Paris, which was for a month, I didn’t see anything close to this look. In Paris, there are stylish women who dress in a myriad of ways. This look you’re documenting, in contrast, if fairly uniform across the board.
But, as I said, I never said it was a “rule” but merely a tendency. Wherever you go, there’s a mainstream and many people who do their own thing. Based on my observation, there is a TENDENCY for many young women here in their 20’s and 30’s to dress a certain way, that more formality and girlish detailing like lace, ribbons, or frills are a bigger factor, in the big picture, in everyday wear. And within that, the “demure dress” is a particular look, which of course, not even all Korean women wear, just as ALL Korean women don’t wear hot pants.
But as a trend, hot pants, for example, are a clear trend that happened this summer, more than any other. All the fashion news are abuzz about it, and if you look around the streets, they were everywhere this summer in a way they weren’t other summers. However, clearly, not all Korean women are wearing hot pants, and none of the 20-something women in the office I work at would ever be caught dead in them. That doesn’t mean it isn’t a trend, though.
Same with “demure dresses” — it’s my estimation that it’s a solid genre among Korean women’s clothing, and it’s been this way because of a couple factors I already outlined.
That’s really all I’m saying.
I’m not doubting your roomie, or the groups of people you know, nor am I saying that all Korean women wear something, or that all Western women don’t — or that these tendencies mean one is in any way better than the other.
#23 — Perhaps “demure” isn’t the best term, but I was actually going for the closest approximation to the Korean word “얌전한” which is how this sort of dress is described in Korean, and is most closely translated as “demure” by a lot of people. Other translations, such as “meek” or “shy” or “quiet” were thought to be pretty off. “Demure,” My translator in this article, too, thought “demure” to be the best way to put it.
And again, the example of the “sexy” end of “demure” was to show that even revealing clothing is often done up with poofiness, frills, bows, and what would be considered “girly” or “demure” accouterments in other contexts
Also, I don’t say this style isn’t in “the West” at all, but that more people wear it here, more often. That’s it. This is why I totally agree with you here:
“Also, it’s fine to document what’s being worn but, again, where the problems occur is when you’re contrasting it to the Western approach which is much more functional. A woman in Manhattan or San Francisco simply isn’t going to bother with some frilly get up to run errands. A woman in those areas is going to look at a pair flats as adoringly as she’d look at a pair of pumps; and she’d choose the flat or pump according to what she was doing for that day or evening.
In contrast, Korea is a place where you have women trying to wear pumps and expensive accessories to a picnic or to the beach. So, yeah, you’re not going to get the same numbers of women dressed like this because women in those places don’t see a need to dress that way. Maybe our mothers and grandmothers did, but we don’t. ”
Agreed 100%. It’s a matter of numbers, not that no one does it at all over there, or that everyone necessarily does it here.
And in the article above, I used the term “classically feminine” to try to describe what is very hard to describe, but since I started the article talking about the 50’s and 60’s in the US, and that look being largely abandoned in the 70’s when women’s fashion, as I think you’d agree diversified and inevitably, became more casual as fashion began to take comfort into account more — that’s what I was referring to. I wasn’t at all advocating the Korean “way” to be “feminine” — as in the only or proper way to “be” a woman.
Actually, I don’t see why this is so controversial, since I’m not talking about broad definitions of “femininity” at all, but clearly about frills, ribbons, and bows, and the whole line of thinking about this actually started in this post, which was a response to what the New York Times was talking about as the “return” of this style of dress in their article “The Newly Uptight”. My whole line of thinking about this was the response that, in Korea at any rate, this look never really “left” and has only recently NOT been mainstream Korean mode, and one doesn’t have to be “uptight” to wear it.
Which is why less conservative young women in their 20’s think of this “demure” style as “old-fashioned”, even as more conservative dressers tend to be the ones keeping this genre of dress very much alive here.
Tying femininity to nationality was a misstep. Perhaps a better word to emphasize here would’ve been ‘traditionalism’ as these kinds of clothes (maybe minus the black flapper minidress) are clearly gender specific, recalling an era that most of us didn’t even live in.
Unisex and non-gender specific mainstream fashion trends have been normal clothes for longer than anyone who’s posted here has been alive, so when we see mass numbers of women in skirts and dresses, fully accessorized, we may be keen to say these women are dressed up. When it’s the majority though, are they dressed up? Or is it just a cultural standard? Korea is probably in the latter. I understand where FMS is coming from. I would probably be inclined to say similar things when talking about Korean women’s fashions in general.
I know there are a few North American women who might read this and say, ‘oh I’m not in the majority of badly dressed, frumpy American women’ and good for you, but you also can probably agree that is some truth in what everyone is saying, as much as your own opinion rings true here, because this is mainly just a matter of backgrounds and personal experiences, and things are going to be different where you’re from, what gender you are, etc.
I have been all over the world, and I do think Korean women have a particular penchant for traditional womens clothing. The clothes don’t make the man, or woman, in this case; it’s just clothing, and a front for femininity.
I like how Ewha has been brought up in the conversation, because I lived and went to school there for 2 years. There are a lot of myths that are circulated about that school and it’s demographics, none of which ring any more true than they do for any other female college student in Korea. Sadly, a lot of these myths have been passed down through Korean society so many times that even young Ewha students believe they are automatically more fashionable or elite than students of other schools. They eventually learn otherwise. Yonsei and Ewha are back to back, and when you’re standing at the scramble in Shinchon on an afternoon, you can’t tell Ewha students apart from female Yonsei students, unless they’re carrying the green planner or a logo folder. The only thing Ewha students really do differently that fulfills the myths is the graduation photos, which still don’t do anything for their personal style.
I don’t think I “tied” femininity to nationality — I simply was saying that “traditional” clothing (which I find more problematic as a descriptor in the Korean context, but…) or what I called “demure dresses” or what one might call “girly” dresses are simply more in view here, which has to do with the higher level of formality in clothing that Korea tends to have, and which has been, in the not-so-distant past, far far more severe.
I myself quickly found out that the description “men do not wear shorts” was absolute here in 1994. When I wore them, I was stared at, and I realized that no Korean men — not a single one — was wearing shorts in public situations not outside the vicinity of one’s house. Or sandals — no one wore them, they didn’t exist. I had a pair of Birkenstocks, and I knew several Americans walking around in Tevas, which were popular in the US and Europe at the time; children stopped to stare at us, whether in Seoul or the provinces — back then, there were certain things you wore, and certain things you didn’t. Funny thing was, the very next year, sandals came “in.” And everyone wore them. From 1995, they were OK.
Point is, I know that Korea is changing, and changing fast — and that “old-fashioned” kind of dress used to be nearly the only kind. People forget, but there were no bright colors (what Koreans call too “화려해” or “colorful/bright/flashy”), most women wore variations of black/white/gray as a base, and showing your shoulders was STILL cause for stares or even getting your shoulders slapped in the Seoul subway; the ability to show off tattoos or nose/brow piercings is still a shock to me, since anyone — especially a woman — would be absolutely shunned if you showed up with a tat back in the 90’s.
So, to me, this “demure” fashion is fascinating not just because it’s “demure” but also how it is a mix of what would have been considered “racy/flashy” back then: these dresses are “demure” by the standards today, but the patterns and colors are bold, the hemlines are much, much shorter than they would have been 15 years ago, and yet they are still considered “얌전해.”
The standards are shifting, but as true Korean fashion goes, I find this to be the most enduring identifiable style extant for Korean women and an essential part of “traditional” in the sense that many Koreans conceive of the word, which is much more “East vs. West” and “Confucian vs. modern” than I ever meant.
In terms of the most “proper” dress for Korean women (which already exists in a “new”, Western sense), within a “traditional” sense of propriety for women — let me make clear here that I do not advocate this as a way for all women to be, but I am simply describing what I think Korean people are thinking about — quiet, humble, non-assertive, and deferential all go into the definition of the “얌전한 여자” and that is matched by a “얌전한” type of fashion that such women would be expected to wear.
That being said, I find it fascinating that the latter definition is shifting (”얌전한” clothing) even in relation to the static image of the former (얌전한 여자), and even when those norms are broken, it’s interesting to see frills and bows and things tacked onto clothing that would not at all be considered “얌전해”, but it still seems like even a lot of “sexy” clothes seem to have to reference it, or that even “얌전한” clothes seem to be venturing into the area of “sexy.”
In any case, my point here isn’t to categorically judge anyone, but to try to make sense of what I consider to be a truly Korean style that is, like all other aspects of fashion here, quickly changing with the times.
And this lively conversation, in forcing me to check my definitions and explain myself more fully, has really helped me think through this style, which I find very difficult to describe in English, or to even describe. But I know it’s there, and I’m trying.
P.S. I’ve put in a footnote to the original post to help clarify what I mean by “demure.” Thanks to all for exchanging opinions. This is what makes blogging fun!
I totally agree with “impolite one” on this:
“I like how Ewha has been brought up in the conversation, because I lived and went to school there for 2 years. There are a lot of myths that are circulated about that school and it’s demographics, none of which ring any more true than they do for any other female college student in Korea. Sadly, a lot of these myths have been passed down through Korean society so many times that even young Ewha students believe they are automatically more fashionable or elite than students of other schools. They eventually learn otherwise. ”
Thank you. Again, I’m an Ewha alumna. I was there for two years too and there is no fashion show at the front gate any more than there is one at the front gate of any other major Korean university. There are some fashionable girls walking by, no doubt, but no one seems to notice the other sorts of Ewha women passing by like the Ewha jocks clad in sweats with not a stitch of make-up and their hair cut short or the studious Ewha bookworms who are bespectacled and dressed down.
Plus, let me tell you this. A lot of those girls tip-toeing around the front gate area aren’t Ewha students anyway. I could tell an Ewha student from just by how they reacted to me. Ewha students rarely blink twice upon seeing a foreign face.
At best, this style of dress is more “stereotypical femininity” than “classic femininity”. “Classic” adds a overtone or connotation of setting a bar and that implies that other forms of femininity and fashion choices are less than.
Well, OK.
Still, let’s stick to what I said. I didn’t say “classic femininity” as a way of talking about a way to be feminine or anything like that.
What I said was a “classically feminine LOOK” in clear reference to the clothes that were being worn in the 50’s and 60’s and no longer being worn as much by the 70’s. And all this started well before this post, with the NYT article I referred to above talking about the same thing.
So, at this point, I think people are saying I said things in their comments, people are responding to that, and getting farther away from any claims I made in the actual article. I don’t make any claims about “femininity” or what’s more proper or preferable. Please read what I said and in the context it was written — talking about a certain style of clothing, not about who is more or less a woman, who is more or less “womanly” in any essential sense.
I used “classic” in the sense that it is often used in fashion, which is a euphemism for “older” styles. That’s it. And if you look at the context, it’s clear I’m not making any broader claims.
I think that to claim I am making any of these broader claims, with the context of the article and my several explanations, is bending over backwards to read something that isn’t there. And as I have said before, if there is any subtle value judging or bias to the article, it’s in the direction of saying the “West” — which I don’t actually focus on explicitly as such very much in the article — doesn’t dress like this because of a higher level of gender equality, which a link I clearly made from the git-go in this article.
So to say this is somehow coming down hard on “Western” women or that it is somehow wagging a finger at them perplexes me.
As for the Ewha thing, let’s also remember that this wasn’t in the article, and was just a side comment: “Or how 9 AM in front of Ewha front gate is jokingly called a “fashion runway” by many, because of the clop, clop, clop of high heels and girls trying to outdo each other in terms of dress.”
One might debate as to why, but don’t blame me for this image — it was there far before I mentioned it, and I actually learned it AT Ewha while I was teaching there, from some students who were joking about it. This image is pervasive in Korean society, as is that of the “Ewha girl” — most famously joked about in the movie “Tajja”, in which, upon the main character being arrested, she protests, “But I went to Ewha!” Don’t kill the messenger — the image is there, and I didn’t make it up for the first time here.
I’ll be the first to admit that Ewha is no more or less formal than any Korean university, but the front gate, which I have also stood outside of as a photographer, is peculiarly narrow, and at 9 AM is the place to be in terms of who’s wearing what. It has that reputation, and that image is iconic for Koreans, so I made mention here in the conversation. If that causes offense to Ewha alums, I apologize.
Still, many Ewha women themselves take pride in being associated with being seen as more fashionable (as well as intelligent and many other things) than other women’s universities, particularly Sookmyeong, its rival. When I was standing out the front gate and telling women that I was doing a story about new fall fashions, and we were doing an “Ewha vs. Sookmyeong” concept, many of the girls there jokingly boasted of how “country” those girls were and how Ewha was clearly the best.
Still, if I want to know what young women are wearing in the fall, I stand outside the Ewha main gate there 1) because it’s a women’s university, so automatically twice as many people are going to women, 2) because everyone is funneled through that narrow space, which in the morning sounds like an army of heels is passing, and 3) because it’s “Ewha.”
And in my estimation, I think there’s a broad representation of styles and stylish people there, and I do think it’s different from other places. As a photographer, it’s a shooting gallery, as most of the school walks by you in the space of a couple hours. I can’t think of a single better place to shoot than there, and perhaps it’s just the layout, but I think that’s part of where Ewha gets it’s reputation, which I didn’t make up out of thin air here.
By the way, we never ran with the “Ewha vs. Sookmyeong” story, because it was so hard to get a lot of Sookdae girls to agree to go on film. For some reason, it was easy as pie at Ewha. We did several pics from in front of Ewha last year, and many girls were eager to pose, some of whom you can see in our Ewha category (referring to the neighborhood, not just the school). And the pictures there were mostly casual and cool, actually, as you can see here and here and here.
But we’re gonna run with the concept full on this year, and I think it’s gonna be a lot of fun, and a good way to showcase both schools and let shine a bit of school pride. Clearly, neither Ewha nor Sookmyeong is going to “win”, as no one wants to put down anyone, but it’s a nice concept for a story, and it will come out to a amicable tie, clearly.
And as for the Ewha girls vs. non roaming around the campus, that’s exactly why I don’t shoot there on weekends. I think the level of true stylishness drop a notch, as the many people who come to Ewha with some weird sense of what that means differ from what I think actual Ewha students know is actually going on in their school.
Personally, I think Ewha girls — the self-consciously fashionable ones — are more fashionable than at other schools I’ve taught or shot at. Stereotypes aside, that’s what I’ve found when actually walking around the campus with a camera. Yonsei is a good place to go, too. As is Waedae. Not so much Kodae or Kyunghee or other places I’ve gone that aren’t as high profile. That’s just what I’ve found.
And still, if another photographer asked me where to shoot for female fashion trends, I’d still say to stand in front of Ewha’s front gate from 8:30–9:30 on a weekday morning. If you want a high ratio of well-dressed college women to put on film, that’s the place. I can’t think of a better place, whether it’s bcs of the layout, the reputation, or what have you. It’s still the best, photographically. And I don’t think most Ewha women would find that insulting, since that’s the rationale I gave to actual Ewha students who agreed to pose in the pictures.
everyday clothes are usually more “dressy” in cities that are fashion capitals. look at the women of NYC and Hong Kong for example. and of course we are looking at a certain generation and class of women too. i’m sure korean women who are in blue collar jobs would not dress like this as it would be extremely unpractical. i went to a school with a lot of korean exchange students, and there they were wearing strappy sandals and dresses to anatomy lab. it seems a lot of korean women emulate how women dressed in 50’s and 60’s (just as you said, how many young women today wear pantyhose?? i certainly don’t). i look at old family photos in the 60s and the women are dressed in blouses, skirts, pumps. Carefully polished nails, pearls, “set” hair. The men in pants, ties, and sportscoats, polished shoes. And this is a casual outdoor picnic!
oh and also i’d like to add, the 50s and 60s era women were wayyyyy more put together and the women of this day rarely get done up to that extreme (korean or not). i mean these women slept with rollers in their hair and makeup, got their hair set at a beauty parlor, nails painted, wore girdles and stockings. men were also held to that expectation, shirt pressed, everything well-tailored, hair gelled, a nice shave at the barber shop, shoes shined, tie, tie clip (how many guys now know how to tie a tie?). i think people now are just too tired to spend all that time on appearance.
to ridonkulus,
I agree, for the most part, but the thing is there are some of us who do wear pantyhose. In fact, I have my shipped in from Nordstrom department store a couple of times a year or wait until I fly home to pick my preferred brand up. Also, in the winter, you’re guaranteed to see me wearing heavier hose a la DKNY or ordered from the Eddie Bauer website.
You’re right about a lesser standard in general. But that’s also culture. My mother pin curled her hair at night. If I have somewhere to be the next day I’ll twist my hair up too. So a lot of it is tradition and culture as, although pop culture focuses much more on negative stereotypes, black American women tend to like to be put together if they have the means to do so. The same sort of fashion show FeetManSeoul refers to at Ewha (…yawn…) can be seen at just about any southern Baptist church congregation complete with set hair, hose, coordinated outfits and a few fancy hats too.
to FMS -
re Ewha, so because it’s a wide spread MYTH it’s okay to keep up the hype? No. I think Ewha women are massively intelligent and wonderfully stylish. As an Ewha alumna, of course I think that, just as I think UCLA is the best university bar none. However, I don’t need to believe that anyone else is less than because they didn’t get into or chose not to attend Ewha and just as I might boo or hiss at the mention of USC in jest, but I realize it’s not a bad university either.
Why stir up bullshit and perpetuate what is essentially an urban myth? Sure, there are uber-fashionable girls at Ewha but I still don’t think they’re any more fashionable than girls across the road at Yonsei no matter what they say.
ExpatJane,
Well, I didn’t say that NO women get done up anymore. These women you speak of are from another decade! Older women whose teenage years were spent in 50s or 60s. Women in their 20s now might rock a fedora or a cute newsboy cap, but a big fancy church hat I don’t think so. Maybe for Easter. I think you might be the exception to the rule when it comes to pantyhose (at least in the Midwest, I’ve never been to the South)! I only know one person my age who wears pantyhose and it’s only because she’s a lawyer and dress code is still dictated by the old boys club.
And just as you said that black women also like to get done up as part of their culture. Isn’t it possible that FMS is also saying Korean women like to get done up in part because of their culture? I have co-worker whose in her late 40s and she absolutely recoils at flip flops. She doesn’t understand why her daughters would leave the house in what she essentially considers as beach shoes or house shoes. I’m glad that we don’t have to worry about those things anymore.
I’m pointing out that your American experience isn’t the only American experience because it’s a melting pot. Maybe not where you’re from but in L.A., which is my hometown, you’re going to see groups of people dressing in different ways whether that’s based on culture, norms or simply on income (or a lack of it.) You’re definitely going to see professional women wearing hose but even before I graduated from university and did the corporate dance for awhile, I wore hose. That’s probably 100% because my mom wore hose and pin curled her hair.
I think that’s the crux of why this post hit a nerve with people. MAYBE it’s okay to generalize to Koreans because they’re so homogeneous, but you’re going to get into trouble when you contrast it with “Western” because that covers so many different sorts of people. And, granted, he did single out a too narrow swatch of selected Western cultures in which he thought women dressed in a more “feminine” way.
Of COURSE what FMS is talking about is that this is bound up in Korean culture to some degree (but a lot of young Korean women are shrugging it off too…thank goodness). In general, women still very much must put on an overtly feminine facade because having a uterus isn’t quite enough.
Better them than me. I’ll be wearing pants to work today but the thing is so will a few female Korean professors.
Wow, this is my first time perusing this site. Some members don’t seem to understand the article very well.
I just want to say that specific examples against FMSs point of view aren’t necessarily evidence that a generalisation isn’t observing a common occurrence.
I find FMSs arguments countering any accusation by those who have commented to be satisfactory and well thought out.
There’s my 2cents worth. I hope I haven’t insulted anyone angry by contributing
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